the Democratic-controlled Congress approved historic legislation Sunday night extending health care to tens of millions of uninsured Americans and cracking down on insurance company abuses, a climactic chapter in the century-long quest for near universal coverage.
i think this has gotten way out control!
@ ABB: “I do wish we had spent more money buying stuff and going on trips instead of saving so much, because our savings are going to be coming under attack soon. Silly us, saving for retirement. What were we thinking?! If we had borrowed, we could be getting bailouts in addition to all the goodies we’d bought with the borrowed money!”
Boy, ain’t that the truth!!! My husband’s sister & her husband did just that — spend, spend, spend. They have a gorgeous house, boat, nice RV, huge shop on their property, expensive furniture, a time-share, 3 Hawaii trips done, etc. etc. Now?? They’ve used up what little savings they had trying to dig themselves out of debt, including cashing in a 401-k. They’re going through the process with their mtg. company to “re-structure” their loan because they can’t afford it. It’s looking like they’ll get their rate lowered to 2.5%, and several additional years to pay it off. Not fair to us, who bought only the house we could afford, set money aside for larger purchases, bought a 10-yr old RV, take trips only after ALL the cash is saved up, have the same furniture we’ve had for about 15 years, have good IRA’s, etc. etc. Not fair at all.
But you know, I’m going to hope for the best, of course. I only have little bitty pessimistic spells every once in awhile. I do wish we had spent more money buying stuff and going on trips instead of saving so much, because our savings are going to be coming under attack soon. Silly us, saving for retirement. What were we thinking?! If we had borrowed, we could be getting bailouts in addition to all the goodies we’d bought with the borrowed money!
I am not arguing with anyone here, nor do I want to “educated” on what I got wrong. I merely expressed my silly sentiments just like everyone else does. So leave me alone while I go check out possibilities for a new private bank, “El Banco de Matresa” (LOL, you know, “Mattress Bank, where YOU lay on your money”).
This should have been medical insurance reform, not just an extension of universal health care. Next time you get the itemized bill from your health insurance after seeing the doctor or having a procedure, look at the difference in what the doctor/hospital charged for said visit/procedure and what insurance says they will pay. Big “discount”, right? But if you follow the payment money on down, you’ll probably find that hospitals can’t do the same thing to their suppliers. “The xray machine costs 150K? Well, we think it’s only worth 25K, and that’s all we’re paying you.” That’s not happening, right?! What happens when the hospitals can’t pay off their staff, equipment, and operating costs because they are cut short by insurance? They raise their rates to the un/underinsured to help recoup their costs. Or they refuse to accept those who can’t pay and/or certain insurance companies. Or they fail.
Insurance companies make their money by gambling that a huge percentage of their customers are going to be healthy and rarely rise above their yearly premiums in cost to the company in order to cover the exceptions whose costs run into the hundreds of thousands. It’s a risky business, and apparently quite profitable. In my H’s company, several times over the last 15 years, the company has had to switch health insurance companies b/c they couldn’t afford the rise in the premiums. You get a few employees who have catastrophic medical costs, and they will affect the premiums of everyone in that “group” for that insurance company as they decide whether or not your company is a profitable one for them when it comes time to renew contracts. Not that they can due to HIPPA rules, but companies are going to wish they could screen future employees to avoid the ones who might have huge medical costs.
I am more like Joyce, and don’t really know enough about all the ins and outs of the full bill. I read this recently: “Let me get this straight. We’re going to be gifted with a health care plan written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn’t understand it, passed by a Congress that hasn’t read it but exempts themselves from it, to be signed by a president who also hasn’t read it and who smokes, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn’t pay his taxes, to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that’s broke. What the hell could possibly go wrong?”
@ Jude:
Well lets try to do this without being “nasty”. Hope u arent one of those intolerant types that thinks disagreement is “mean”…
Man, you know little or nothing about how the health insurance industry works or what they get out of this partisan piece of incompetence foisted on our republic, against the will of the folks. Insurance companies are the recipients of 30 million new “forced” subcribers! They arent upset at all!!
WHY?
Because the government In the states AND in DC has NEVER allowed the health insurance industry to COMPETE. They are hamstrung by whatever rules the states put together and we lemmings have been forced to accept paying for those benefits, whether we want them or not.
This isnt a health bill. The insurance folks are quietly accepting the abuse of the Messiah because the deal has been cut. They win. Now they get to raise premiums on everyone, not drop them as BHO promised, because of the rules in the bill.
And Liberal politicians win (they think) because they increase their power dramatically- so they win, for now.
I wish you were right. That all this was just so that we can make certain every CITIZEN or legal entrant never goes without the help they need. Unfortunately it is not. Its a power grab. Its something that will hurt this country, not help it. The aftermath will be ugly. Power comes from the consent of the governed and no matter what you think, any honest assessment would see there was none given.
My story shall remain private, but if you knew it you would certainly think that if BHO was honest about what this would do, Id be thrilled. Im not. This sux and you’ll see that soon enough.
God Bless us all.. we’re gonna need it.
@ Jude:
No need for the ad-hominem attack. Also no need to tell me about the insurance industry. I work on the periphery and don’t trust insurance companies as far as I can throw them.
Why do you expect the profit motive in the health insurance industry to be different than any other business in America? All corporations exist soley for the benefit of the stockholder. It’s the stockholders that vote on the board of directors who in turn choose the management team of a company. If you have an issue with that then tell the SEC to change the corporate voting rules so that votes not cast by shareholders don’t automatically go to the board. (While you’re at it tell them to put a stop once & for all to naked shorting – but I digress.)
If you think ‘profit’ is going to be taken out of healthcare with a complete government takeover then history says you’re wrong and you only have to look as far as the SSA. The Treasury has taken all the money out of the trust fund & replaced it with IOU’s i.e. Treasury Bills. If there’s any extra money in any healthcare pool the b*st*rds in Congress won’t be able to keep their greedy little mitts off it – and that’s both sides of the aisle.
Finally, show me one program, business, economic sector, etc that government has taken over that now runs better.
I tend to lean to the side that says we should be willing to part with a little extra dough if it means helping those who go without. Just makes sense to me. And as Jude said, I think this will help stop the greedy drug and insurance companies. Maybe a cancer patient will actually get the care they NEED, and not just what the insurance company TELLS them they are willing to pay for.
Disclaimer: I really don’t know enough about this to come to any kind of intelligent decision. Just wanted to put that out there.
:blink:
@ Easy Rider:
Correction, I meant to say since I’ve “been” asked or told or challenged or whatever.
@ Jude, I appreciate and agree with your thoughts on this issue. :smile:
@ CB:
Totally agree, CB. Well said.
@ CB:
Under a single-payer system, your taxes go up, however, you end up paying less than what you would under a pure capitalist health care system. It’s like paying for the services but without paying for the profit-lining greedy motives behind them. That’s where the money really goes. Anyone who thinks that what they pay in premiums and rates really goes towards their health care hasn’t been paying attention – the executives attempt to make us much money as possible while proving as little care as possible. It’s the nature of the health insurance industry and how it makes money. Thank the lord that Congress made massive efforts to fix that.
If you actually sit back, drop the pre-conceived notions that FoxNews and other biased sources (MSNBC as well)tell you, the bill actually is pretty landmark in that IT PROTECTS YOU AGAINST GETTING RIPPED OFF BY THE INSURANCE INDUSTRY!!!
That’s a good thing. Be thankful for it. Also, unless you make a ridiculous amount of money per year, your taxes won’t go up. In fact, Barack Obama lowered taxes for 95% of Americans but Glenn Beck will never tell you that.
I think there are problems with ssi and medicare and their will be with universal health care. But hey! This ain’t a perfect country. But of all the tax dollars I pay, that is the money I’m happiest to see go. And I’ll pay my share of the UHC tax gladly regardless what others may do. I know some poor old widows who would die hungry on the cold streets without ssi. Or suffer and die without their medicare medicine or treatments…! “We make our “living” by what we get. We make our “lives” by what we give”! To quote Winston Chuchill :smile: Since I’ve asked.
@ CB:
EXACTLY, CB–you tell it like it is!
I was awaiting your comments; 100% agree with you.
Who are the 12 that decided this legislation was not worthy of their vote?
I’m sorry, but I find myself having less and less use for our elected officials on a daily basis.
I think CB has pretty much said it all, on this subject.
@ CB:
Stop the presses! I agree with CB!!
*cue flying pigs*
Two things:
When Congress puts themselves under the same rules & regulations they force the rest of Americans to live under (SSA, Medicare & now this new insurance bill to name a few) I’ll believe them.
“Additionally, a significant percentage of the top 10% are loyal Democrats who welcome the tax.”
Anybody who welcomes paying higher taxes is free to do so. You can either do that via your 1040 or see: http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/resources/faq/faq_publicdebt.htm#DebtFinance
No need to raise taxes. Please let us know how much you care to donate – mine is $0.
I just can’t decide what side I’m on with this. The idea of the plan appeals to me, I just worry about the execution.
@ AtlKat:
Interestingly that means your dad sold when the top tax rate was just north of 39%. From 1951 until 1976 (arguably the period of greatest expansion ever of the American Economy) tax rates ranged from a high of 91% to a low of 70%. According to the WSJ, Clinton’s term showed the largest expansion of jobs by % of any president between 1945 and 2008.
Just a thought
@ Jude:
I really like how you so nicely layout the liberal POV without attacking the opposition. Really. It’s so nice to see someone cool, calm, and collected on the other side.
I do want to comment on your #11… what is likely to happen with the people who make huge amounts of money is that they will close up the shop rather than having to give the government 60 cents of every dollar they make. That’s what my father did in the 90s under Clinton. He sold his business and retired at an early age. It was no longer worth it to him to work so hard only to have to give so much of that money away.
Yeah, I know all that, Jude. Thanks for posting it, though! There are some good points to the bill, for sure. I hope those good things work as they should.
Perhaps what I should have said is, it FEELS like it’s being pushed through quickly with little explanation of how things are really going to work. It’s just my perception.
As always, I’ll just sit back and watch what happens now. Should be interesting.
@ angie:
This bill was not pushed through quickly at all. It has been in the making for decades and hotly debated, written, rewritten, analyzed and voted on nonstop for the past year.
The bill is not a cure-all. It’s a compromise between the right and the left. Progressives would prefer a single-payer government-run system which is ultimately cheaper and covers all Americans while also improving the quality of health care as middle management won’t reject them for financial reasons.
Conservatives prefer to keep it the way it is (with minor changes) as they believe in big business and free enterprise.
What the bill does:
1. Allows parents to cover their children up to the age of 26.
2. Eliminates the lifetime cap that insurance companies place on individuals. This does not effect most of us, however, cancer patients, amputees, disabled Americans etc. have a HUGE problem with this.
3. Makes it illegal to deny someone coverage because of a pre-existing condition. This is the most popular aspect of the bill.
4. Removes the doughnut holes in coverage for seniors that essentially screws them out of a lot of money at times.
5. Gives tax credits to small businesses who offer their employees health care.
6. Fines big companies who do not offer their employees health care.
7. Creates a health care exchange for people who need health care in order to create more competition and thereby, lowering costs.
8. Prevents you from losing your insurance when you lose your job.
9. This is the part that conservatives really take issue with: requires all Americans to have health insurance of some kind or pay a fine.
10. If an individual cannot afford health insurance, the government will subsidize it.
11. Those with an income that places them in the top 10% of earners will have their taxes slightly increased. The rationale is that because the top 10% makes soooo much money (more than the bottom 90% combined) that the extra income will easily cover a big part of the cost to subsidize health care for those who can’t afford it. Additionally, a significant percentage of the top 10% are loyal Democrats who welcome the tax.
(Side note: Many of the people who would pay extra in taxes are wealthy liberals from the east and west coast. Many of the people who would have their health care subsidized would be low-income conservatives from the south. Political demographics in this country = huge paradox especially on domestic issue like health care.)
There are some other things in there, but those are the basic principles. I believe they are also cutting waste and fraud from Medicare/Medicaid to save money as well.
It is going to be interesting to see what comes out of the house/senate meetings and the states lawsuits.
Yeah, I don’t even have to be in the same country as Pelosi, and she is still annoying even over here.
It will be interesting to see how your tax equation changes, but there is no doubt here in New Zealand our taxes are a lot higher than in the US (and our living costs in terms of food etc are much higher too) but we still were fairly shielded from the recession and are generally well off. I think the reason for that is that we very rarely have large unexpected expenses… things like education and health being heavily subsidised.
Even my university education I didn’t have to pay a cent for at the time… yeah, I have to pay the government back, but I’m doing it over a number of years and out of a professional salary. I didn’t have to lean on my parents to pay it.
Angie, I agree with you – this will certainly not be a cure all. But I hope that any rise you see in taxes is offset by the savings you can make in other payments you might have had to make.
@ angie:
Pelosi’s laugh was funny at first, but it got annoying quick.
As a general rule, I am all for health care reform. We are working poor-ish. We’ve had it worse, we’ve had it barely better and we are where we are now. Thank God I have a decent job with benefits. It wasn’t that long ago, back when I had only one child, that my husband had a job with benefits, but it was so expensive to add the family, my daughter and I went without. We did so for seven years. Seven years of praying that she or I would just stay healthy and not need major medical care.
I am all for every American having coverage. However, I feel like this was pushed through so quickly with little to no looking it over to make it the best it can be.
I really and truly don’t think this will end up being as wonderful as a lot of people think. However, I hope I am wrong!!
On a somewhat related note, I can’t wait for Pelosi to be gone.
We can rest assured that this is a great bill for the betterment of the country when our federal government trades the promise of water in exchange for a couple of votes. See: California water crisis
I do not like the high dollar amount I have to pay in taxes every year. But I love my country and the ideals and principals it supposedly believes in and stands for.I personally for my money would like to see the budget balanced and every American with a good paying job and benefits. In other words I’m not satisfied with the way our tax dollars are spent. But I’m happy to see health care reform bill pass in our country.It is not a perfect bill I’m sure. It will have to take baby steps and be amended as we go. I know it barley past so half the country does not want it. But I personally know a few guys who did not want the stimulus bill to pass either, but they ran out and bought new cars and two more that bought houses too! They saved money as well as helped create more jobs. My point is that someday those against this bill or someone in their family may really need to use it. No one knows what their future holds with any certainty.
Now let get our troops back home Mr. Obama, and strengthen our borders. :smile:
Why are people complaining about the cost of the bill (roughly 93 billion per yr), when the undeclared war in Iraq over non-existent WMD costs 2 billion taxpayer dollars per week and has just reached its 7th anniversary?
@ Jude:
after months of running around he finally pushes off one trip,
visiting foreign leaders is something that has to be done not only to apologize, that’s not a gross and inaccurate exaggeration it’s exactly what he was doing everywhere he went,
if ur worried about all the money being stolen by corporations how could you possibly bring the stimulus bill as a defense?! where do you think all that money went to?
@ Joeyinc
I think I addressed most of your claims already about the financial aspect of it all. Remember, many of the countries with socialized medicine are in better economic standing than we are atm. A big portion of the money made in America goes to corporate pockets. Remember, the top 5% own more than the bottom 95% combined in this country. Cutting out the profit-motive over health care improves quality and lowers costs. Woot.
As per the President traveling the world apologizing for us instead of governing.
1. President Obama has now twice pushed back his visits to foreign leaders in Asia over healthcare.
2. Visiting foreign leaders is part of being president. Ask Presidents Carter, Bush, Clinton and W. Bush.
3. Major bills passed in first 14 months of the Obama presidency: Stimulus, Health Care and Jobs bills. On paper, that makes him the most powerful president on domestic issues since LBJ.
4. I respect Pres. George W. Bush as I respect all American presidents. That being said, improving our foreign relations was not his strong suit. Fortunately, Pres. Obama is one of the most admired people in the world. Sending him around to meet with foreign leaders is a good thing.
5. He doesn’t run around apologizing for us. That’s a gross and inaccurate exaggeration of his attempts to repair damaged international relationships.
@ Jude:
And as a temporary solution it might even work, it worked in the UK for years now it’s bankrupting the government, sure the numbers look great now but were dealing with a 9 trillion $ deficit and to take on a project with a history of financial disaster might not be the answer.
And America is not always right but if out president spent more time working on making things right instead of flying around the world apologizing for everything we do this country might look better today.
“Who cares what every other country does, this is America, were supposed to be the one’s who get it right, not bend our rules to do what everyone else is doing”
And THAT is why the rest of the world thinks we need an attitude adjustment.
Unfortunately, we don’t always get it “right.” It would be great if we did, however, letting corporations govern over without check is definitely not getting it “right.” Slavery was not getting it “right”, denying women the right to vote was not getting it “right”, invading Iraq under false assumptions was not getting it “right.” Sometimes, we’re “wrong.” That’s ok. We’re human just like the citizens of every other nation.
Additionally, to suggest that “were supposed to be the one’s who get it right” is not the greatest approach. I wasn’t aware that we’re the country that is always “right.’ I think most of the people in the world would strongly disagree with that statement. I’m glad you think that it’s our job to be right on everything, unfortunately, it just doesn’t always happen.
One thing that was “right” today, however, was insuring 32 million new Americans. That’s not Socialism. That’s doing the “right thing.”
@ Jude:
Will be ok with all that change we keep hearing about, trying to making it personal doesn’t make it a good thing
I apologize for the typos. It’s late, I’m tired and I will sleep better tonight knowing that my diabetic friend who can’t afford health insurance will eventually be ok.
@ Jude:
Who cares what every other country does, this is America, were supposed to be the one’s who get it right, not bend our rules to do what everyone else is doing
People are funny. They scream “Nazis” and “Socialism” and “Communism” without truly knowing what those terms means. Communism and Nazism are obscenely off-based ideologically from health care reform so they aren’t worth touching on. Some conservatives claim that a government subsidized health care system is socialist and that’s bad because that’s “like Soviet Russia.” First off, Russia was a communist nation. If you would like to see how modern socialism works, go to European countries like France or Sweden. Socialism is when the government owns the means of production. If the government were to attempt to own and operate textiles and manufactured goods, that would be socialist – it’s also a complete impossibility in this world as it’s ideological to be feasible (just like pure capitalism and Democracy). That being said, ensuring health care coverage for citizens is so incredibly NOT socialism, it’s ridiculous. Doctor visits are definitely not the means of production and manufactured goods.
What Congress did today was simply enact a watered-down version of what EVER INDUSTRIALIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD HAS, which is a government-run health care system. The ups to this are that in insures all citizens, gets rid of corporate profit motive, eliminates waste from middle management in insurance companies (that and profit-lining executives is where the money in insurance currently goes)and, most importantly improves the overall quality of health care for all citizens. Health care is actually significantly cheaper to operate under a government-run system as it then exists for the sole purpose of paying for doctors, medicines, procedures etc. Additionally, hospitals are currently not allowed to turn people away from the emergency room which ultimately forces the government to foot the bill. This is a big part of the reason why the nonpartisan CBO (Congressional Budger Office) projects the reform passes today will actually lower the deficit by over a trillion dollars.
People are nervous over taxes. Don’t be. The cost of care under a government-sun system is so dynamically lower, that it’s ridiculous. When you cut out the middle man in health (Insurance Companies) the price of it all goes down tremendously. Also, just ask the Europeans about it. If I’m correct, many of these “socialist” nations aren’t finding themselves in the recession that we currently in and their standard of living and life expectancy are often much higher. Don’t believe me…look at the statistics for Canada or France. Whenever new legislation is passed in this country (Social Security, Civil Rights, etc.) conservatives always decry these efforts as un-American. That’s how conservatives stand for the status quo and progressive stand for progress. It’s in the names themselves. Also, ignore the scare tactics…they’re nonsensical and are used anytime Democrats try to do ANYTHING such as allowing black Americans to attend the same schools as white Americans. Republicans utilized the same approach. They were wrong then and they’re wrong now.
Unfortunately, we don’t have a government-run system. Once President Obama signs the bill, we will have a weak watered-down system which is still landmark as it covers 32 millions additional Americans and is a stepping stone to greater things.
@ Dr. Electro:
Amen Dr, this is just another glimpse into the slowly developing united states of communist America, sure it’s history in the making, so was Hitlers rise to power, a young charismatic speaker with his own dangerous agenda, I wonder how much this is going to cost us in the long run and if we will ever be able to get out of this mess.
I wanted to see some provisions that go directly to the source of our health care problems. Attack the cost overruns. Medical equipment manufactureres and the drug companies are holding the entire health care system hostage with the blessing of everybody in American government.
Did I hear somebody say that government regulation is a bad idea? Excuse me but wouldn’t the regulation of the people who are driving costs through the roof help to lower costs for EVERYBODY? Wealthy republican conservatives included? All the republicans want to do is pat the wealthy and powerful on the back and say, “Good job now line my pockets some more.”
All the Democrats want to do is meddle in things they don’t understand. What they have done is hand the health insurance mob carte blanche to rob the poor to make themselves rich. Why do the poor not have health insurance? Because they CAN’T afford it! What will happen when the insurence premiums are 400% to 600% higher in four years? Poor people will be forced to fork over or be fined.
Health care reform my ass. This is just another fleecing of America. :alien:
I am happy about the fact that the uninsured will now have healthcare. That’s wonderful and I support that whole-heartedly. I just don’t know what this is going to do to our taxes. Someone has to pay for this. I don’t want to be selfish – I do want to help those without coverage – I’m just worried about taxes going up a whole bunch. As I mentioned in the shoutbox, our Norwegian friends did say that they have higher taxes than we do.
I really don’t feel informed enough to even talk much about it. I wish I knew all the ins and outs and could take a more informed stand. :blink:
@ Joyce:
Joyce, I think you should be happy about it – it’s a very exciting time to be an american. Our health systen isn’t great but every american i’ve ever met that uses both says ours is a lot better. I hope this really improves the standard of medical care and as such the standard of life over there.
I *think* I’m happy about it. I admit to not really knowing enough about what happens next.
Either way, it was really interesting to watch it all unfold. History in the making.